Tero
27 February 2001, 15:46
An interesting debate in soc.culture.nordic, abbreviated here is Mika's long speech:
From: Mika (Captn@sci.fi)
Subject: Re: SV: SV: Vikings in Russia & Saamis and Finns
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 2001-02-25 15:04:02 PST
Inger, the idea of Sami late arrival is OLDER idea (Alfred Hackman,early 1900) than Sami culture continuation idea (C.F. Meinander: "Dåvits" 1969 and Tvärminne symposium v. 1980).The Tvärminne symposium gathered together archeologists, geneticsscientists, linguists, folklorists, paleoecologists and historians whodiscussed if cross-scientific results can explain modern ethnicconstruction of the population in Finland. The conclusions include:1) Scientists of Finno-Ugric and German studies agreed that there is no discontinuation in the inhabitation of Finland.2) Language and culture has continuation in Finland at least from theComb-Ceramic era (6500 BC).3) Finnish population has a lot of genetic characters that suggest Finnsare quite homogenetic people and have received only very minor geneticcharacters of other types (since Finland was inhabited).4) Finno-Ugric common language has been spoken on a wide region, mostapproved from the Baltics to the Ural Mountains.5) Common Finnish language has been spoken 2000 BC in the region thattoday includes e.g. Finnish, Karelian, Ingerian, Livonian, Estonian,
6) The Baltic loan words in Finnish date to around 2000 BC.7) Sami language divided from Common Finnish languages around 1000 BC.Et cetera...You're always stating that archeologic artefacts of Finnish and Samicultures belong to some other cultures (of which there's not trace anymore... not even a linguistic substratum). You're in thin ice there!I won't go here to the issue if the inhabitants of Finnish interriorcultures were Sami or if only some of them were. It isn't necessary inthis discussion, and I have a lot to learn about it. It is onlynecessary to show that Finland has been inhabited by the speakers of the Common Finnish language, and that the Sami population has interactedwith this population much longer than you claim.You say, that Sami didn't live in the region before 400 AD. You'realways hinting some documents of contemporary writers proving this (orthat). Who do you consider Tacitus' fenni are, then? Tacitus in Germania98 A.D.: "The Fenni live in astonishing barbarism and disgusting misery:no arms, no horses, no household; wild plants for their food, skins fortheir clothing, the ground for their beds..". However this doesn't fitto the archaeologic evidence of Finns, who had lived in loghouses and practised agriculture and animal husbandry since the Neolithic StoneAge! The fenni of Tacitus are clearly nomadic people. Also Procopiusmentions the Skridfinns 555 AD and Paulus Diaconus 750 AD."Fenni", "Phinoi", "Finn" and such are however, not the name Finns (orSami) call themselves. Finns call themselves suomalaiset and theircountry Suomi. But the Norwegians do call the Sami Finns, even today!The early descriptions of the Fenni are given by Scandinavians (like theNorwegian Ottar in the court of king Alfred the Great of England in the9th century). The descriptions of the Fenni and Skridfinns do fit to thenomadic Sami (not all the Sami were nomadic, though) while theycertainly don't fit to Finns at all (that is, suomalaiset). The namefenni has reached the Roman and Greek scientist via germanic peoples inCentral Europe and Scandinavia.
So, what have we learned so far?1) The Sami are quite different from all other known peoples, by geneticheritance.2) Finnish and Sami languages have been different languages at leastsince the division of Common German languages.3) Finnish and Sami languages (all 10 of them!) are all close relative languages.4) Baltic Finnic languages were spoken where Germanic and Baltic languages developped.5) All Baltic Finnic languages are close relative languages, maybe eventhe same language once.In the light of the above, it is more than likely Sami people were inlooong isolation. The best region where you can be in long isolation, inearly and close interaction with Baltic Finnic languages, and Finns whohave lived in Finland since it's first inhabitation, and still be closeto developping Germanic languages is.... TAD-DA-DAA! Lappland! ---------Mika
************
The interesting thing to note is that Finns have been in the Baltic region several thousand years. Why ask where we came from, we were there a long time ago.
From: Mika (Captn@sci.fi)
Subject: Re: SV: SV: Vikings in Russia & Saamis and Finns
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Date: 2001-02-25 15:04:02 PST
Inger, the idea of Sami late arrival is OLDER idea (Alfred Hackman,early 1900) than Sami culture continuation idea (C.F. Meinander: "Dåvits" 1969 and Tvärminne symposium v. 1980).The Tvärminne symposium gathered together archeologists, geneticsscientists, linguists, folklorists, paleoecologists and historians whodiscussed if cross-scientific results can explain modern ethnicconstruction of the population in Finland. The conclusions include:1) Scientists of Finno-Ugric and German studies agreed that there is no discontinuation in the inhabitation of Finland.2) Language and culture has continuation in Finland at least from theComb-Ceramic era (6500 BC).3) Finnish population has a lot of genetic characters that suggest Finnsare quite homogenetic people and have received only very minor geneticcharacters of other types (since Finland was inhabited).4) Finno-Ugric common language has been spoken on a wide region, mostapproved from the Baltics to the Ural Mountains.5) Common Finnish language has been spoken 2000 BC in the region thattoday includes e.g. Finnish, Karelian, Ingerian, Livonian, Estonian,
6) The Baltic loan words in Finnish date to around 2000 BC.7) Sami language divided from Common Finnish languages around 1000 BC.Et cetera...You're always stating that archeologic artefacts of Finnish and Samicultures belong to some other cultures (of which there's not trace anymore... not even a linguistic substratum). You're in thin ice there!I won't go here to the issue if the inhabitants of Finnish interriorcultures were Sami or if only some of them were. It isn't necessary inthis discussion, and I have a lot to learn about it. It is onlynecessary to show that Finland has been inhabited by the speakers of the Common Finnish language, and that the Sami population has interactedwith this population much longer than you claim.You say, that Sami didn't live in the region before 400 AD. You'realways hinting some documents of contemporary writers proving this (orthat). Who do you consider Tacitus' fenni are, then? Tacitus in Germania98 A.D.: "The Fenni live in astonishing barbarism and disgusting misery:no arms, no horses, no household; wild plants for their food, skins fortheir clothing, the ground for their beds..". However this doesn't fitto the archaeologic evidence of Finns, who had lived in loghouses and practised agriculture and animal husbandry since the Neolithic StoneAge! The fenni of Tacitus are clearly nomadic people. Also Procopiusmentions the Skridfinns 555 AD and Paulus Diaconus 750 AD."Fenni", "Phinoi", "Finn" and such are however, not the name Finns (orSami) call themselves. Finns call themselves suomalaiset and theircountry Suomi. But the Norwegians do call the Sami Finns, even today!The early descriptions of the Fenni are given by Scandinavians (like theNorwegian Ottar in the court of king Alfred the Great of England in the9th century). The descriptions of the Fenni and Skridfinns do fit to thenomadic Sami (not all the Sami were nomadic, though) while theycertainly don't fit to Finns at all (that is, suomalaiset). The namefenni has reached the Roman and Greek scientist via germanic peoples inCentral Europe and Scandinavia.
So, what have we learned so far?1) The Sami are quite different from all other known peoples, by geneticheritance.2) Finnish and Sami languages have been different languages at leastsince the division of Common German languages.3) Finnish and Sami languages (all 10 of them!) are all close relative languages.4) Baltic Finnic languages were spoken where Germanic and Baltic languages developped.5) All Baltic Finnic languages are close relative languages, maybe eventhe same language once.In the light of the above, it is more than likely Sami people were inlooong isolation. The best region where you can be in long isolation, inearly and close interaction with Baltic Finnic languages, and Finns whohave lived in Finland since it's first inhabitation, and still be closeto developping Germanic languages is.... TAD-DA-DAA! Lappland! ---------Mika
************
The interesting thing to note is that Finns have been in the Baltic region several thousand years. Why ask where we came from, we were there a long time ago.